@previous comment: not everybody who is out of a job "doesn't want to work". I can't stand people who think that way and really hope you become unemployed and homeless one day to be honest, totally out of your own control. And then all your old friends can comment on how you "don't want to work".
And read up on your basic economic's. Any industrialised sociaty will always have unemployment.
Aldo, you got there first with a variation on what I was going to write.
Basically, there is a chance this guy actually thinks nijas killed his family. Can't put my finger on the exact stats right now, but I remember hearing that the majority of homeless people have some kind of mental disorder.
Sad but true, and there really isn't a mental health infrastructure in the U.S. to help people out. Even "good" insurance for working people doesn't always cover mental health. I went through that mess in grad school and was lucky enough to get counseling as part of a low cost program for NYU students.
(LOTE, I am thinking your comment may have been tongue in cheek. Am I right?)
Yeah a lot of homeless people have a mental disorder. In the US the number of war-veterans that become homeless (usually with a mental disorder) is fighting. After you fight for your country..... you can basically go to hell in the US it seems.
Of course there also are people who simply have bad luck and become homeless. I know Americans more then other cultures believe success is all in your own hands, but it's not really that easy.
Homeless vets is one of the tragedies of modern America. It's right up there with the fact the 25% of kids live in poverty. I don't know how we can call ourselves a "developed nation" and accept those stats.
I agree that the Horatio Alger mythos has a pernicious legacy in the U.S. that the rest of the world has mainly been lucky enough to escape. This is one of those subjects that makes me really, really angry, so maybe I should actually write a blog post about it. For now, I'll just say that my gut reaction to homeless people when I see them is usually some secular form of, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Which, having watched people I know teeter on the brink, I totally believe.
Kathryn, I see you ARE starting to understand me, how was your T-Day? ;-)
But as you know I cannot, not reply to Aldo.
Aldo, your wish came true before you were even done poopin in your diapers.
So please no lectures on the poor, poor homeless peeps. I suggest you go out and live with them for a bit, before you get on your freaking soapbox.
Also unemployment does not equal homelessness, and if it does in your studies of "basic economics" then I think I'll pass on "reading up on" on it. K?
I have been unemployed a number of times, but only homeless once, and it really was not caused by anything that was out of my control, although at the time I believed it was, nor is it usually out of ones control for long.
It was caused by the fact that I drank too much, which was totally my decision, and worked too little, also totally my decision.
The longterm homeless people that I met fell into one of two catagories: The insane or the drunk/lazy.
There where also the situationally homeless, those that had lost a job, suffered a divorce that type of thing, but those people did not stay homeless very long at all. Homelessness for them was a temporary situation, which they worked their way out of, usually in weeks or a few months at worst, never years.
We drunk/lazys thought that they had all the luck, and wished it would come our way, but what they really had was determination to improve thier life, we didn't understand this as we had little or none of thier drive.
The longterm homeless that were insane usually didn't want to do what they needed to do to get well, like stay on their meds which the state did provide, and since they cannot be forced to take them once they leave the hospital, what do you think can be done about them, short of life inprisonment?
Now for the drunk/lazy group, of which I was a member in good standing.
We really where all over the place as to the triggers of our homelessness, but no matter what we said it was, it always did go back to the fact that we where drunk and/or lazy.
Hell for the first four months I loved being homeless, it was a kind of freedom I had never experienced before in my life. No one told you what to do, when to do or why to do. You were in total control of your life. Money could be made by a bi-weekely visit to the blood bank to "donate", at $20 a pop, plasma. It however did start to get cold, and this changed some of the allure this lifestyle held for me.
Being cold blows!
There was talk by a couple of my drunk/lazy homeless pals of going to Texas, Florida or California for the winter like one of the guys did every year. Kinda sounds like retirement without the pension or social security check doesn't it? Well it kind of was, but going to an unknown place, in the south, where the police did not care for you being there, it was going to be much work.
I made a decision that I did not care to live outdoors through a northern winter, so I did something about it.
I took a temporary job cleaning the county stadium the morning after games. It paided minimum wage and you had to be at the employment office at 4:00 am to even have a chance of working. I worked hard, and cut back on the booze, and it lead to being picked for better jobs, and finally a full-time position with one of the companies I temp'ed for.
I went to back to college, graduated, and never slid back into that life. To this day I give way more money than the average to a local homeless shelter that serves families in trouble. They also spent 97+% of the money that comes in the door directly on serving those that need it, not < 20% like the so-called Federal Anti-poverty Programs. I spent one week every year building homes with Habitat for Humanity, and have provided job training for at-risk youth. Some of these kids want to make a better life for themselves, while others want a free ride, the free riders get nowhere with me.
I will always remember where I came from, where I have gotten to, and most of all I will always beleive that we all should help those that are trying to make a better life for themselves, and leave those that could not care less about improving their lives alone to live as they wish. See it really is simple.
So that said I want to get back to the guy with the sign, he probably makes more money than the average worker with that sign, so my hats off to him.
LOTE, I have known too many people who were teetering on the brink financially, and who I know would have been pushed over the edge mentally by homelessness to buy into your assessment of the situation. From what I have seen in news reports and accounts, the services for the impoverished mentally ill (and really, don't you think we should include drug addiction under the umbrella of mental health?) are awful, not really a system that makes them feel safe.
Your story is the basic Horatio Alger story, congrats. But that narrative is the reason why social programs in this country are in such a sorry state. Americans like to believe that everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but that just isn't the case. Some people work hard, and do their best, and still can't make a life. And not becuase they are drunk or lazy. Sometimes people are just unlucky. We can argue (discuss) whether society has any obligations to these people and why or why not. But let's start with the axiom that such people do exist.
As for "there but..." I did say a secular version thereof. Or did you mean you don't think I could become homeless?
How many homeless people have you actually talked to?
This is not a retorical question, because to understand them, you need to actually talk to them. Most people will not want to get dirty and actually spend a few hours talking to them.
Most people just want them to go away to disappear from view, since they make them uncomfortable just with their meer presence on the street.
Excuse my french, but F*ck "news reports and accounts".
Who controls what you see and hear in the news?
To tell you the honest truth, when I was homeless and we the heard of a new state program ,we knew that we would recieve no benefit, nothing.
The only people that gained anything was the providers, and mainly the employees of the Department of Human Services. They'd get new offices, furniture, a nice parking structure. The people they were suppose to be serving would get nothing.
To truly understand this or any issue, you need to know the people, then make your own evaluation of what is actually happening.
As for my story being a Horato Alger story, not even close. I knew people that came from better places that ended up worse off, and people that came horrible situations that are much better off, but the differece always was who wanted to change.
You cannot take a drunk, who loves to drink and make him stop.
That is something that has to come from within the individual!
As to drug addicts, end the sham War on Drugs, and watch what happens when 1/10 of the money we throw down that rat hole is spent on education.
I have only talked to a couple of homeless people. This was when I lived in NYC, and they were not lengthy discussions. But my impression was that they would not choose the life they were leading.
I get the same impression from the reports I've read. Of course, I take news reports with a grain of salt. I consider the source, and the author, and the methodology and critically analyze their conclusions. I don't throw the media baby out with the bathwater. Like all human endeavors, the media is flawed, but that doesn't mean it is worthless.
The point is that most people who are making it, even if they're barely getting by, have a support system of friends, family, and yes, at times, the government. The homeless, by and large, lack that support system. Getting off drugs and alcohol is hard, and pretty much impossible to do on your own. You can recognize the problem, but making the change requires help, hence things like AA sponsors. Same thing for getting psychological treatment.
The current programs may be administered badly, but the idea is sound. It's not about taking care of people (the much maligned "nanny state"), but about giving them access to a support system they can avail themselves of if they choose.
I apologize for joining the party so late. Yes, there is a difference between being homeless in Lengby, Minnesota and Phoenix, Arizona. Holy Cow! Now I'm writing poetry... I can tell you that homeless in Philomath, Oregon wasn't much fun in January either. But it never would have crossed my mind to find a program to help me. Uh no, the couple of times that I found myself without a home - the first thing I looked for was a job. But hey, that's me...
11 comments:
Well I guess I would be much more sympathetic to that, then to "I am a lazy drunk who doesn't want to work".
He at least is showing some creativity.
@previous comment: not everybody who is out of a job "doesn't want to work". I can't stand people who think that way and really hope you become unemployed and homeless one day to be honest, totally out of your own control. And then all your old friends can comment on how you "don't want to work".
And read up on your basic economic's. Any industrialised sociaty will always have unemployment.
Aldo, you got there first with a variation on what I was going to write.
Basically, there is a chance this guy actually thinks nijas killed his family. Can't put my finger on the exact stats right now, but I remember hearing that the majority of homeless people have some kind of mental disorder.
Sad but true, and there really isn't a mental health infrastructure in the U.S. to help people out. Even "good" insurance for working people doesn't always cover mental health. I went through that mess in grad school and was lucky enough to get counseling as part of a low cost program for NYU students.
(LOTE, I am thinking your comment may have been tongue in cheek. Am I right?)
Yeah a lot of homeless people have a mental disorder. In the US the number of war-veterans that become homeless (usually with a mental disorder) is fighting. After you fight for your country..... you can basically go to hell in the US it seems.
Of course there also are people who simply have bad luck and become homeless. I know Americans more then other cultures believe success is all in your own hands, but it's not really that easy.
Homeless vets is one of the tragedies of modern America. It's right up there with the fact the 25% of kids live in poverty. I don't know how we can call ourselves a "developed nation" and accept those stats.
I agree that the Horatio Alger mythos has a pernicious legacy in the U.S. that the rest of the world has mainly been lucky enough to escape. This is one of those subjects that makes me really, really angry, so maybe I should actually write a blog post about it. For now, I'll just say that my gut reaction to homeless people when I see them is usually some secular form of, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Which, having watched people I know teeter on the brink, I totally believe.
Kathryn, I see you ARE starting to understand me, how was your T-Day? ;-)
But as you know I cannot, not reply to Aldo.
Aldo, your wish came true before you were even done poopin in your diapers.
So please no lectures on the poor, poor homeless peeps. I suggest you go out and live with them for a bit, before you get on your freaking soapbox.
Also unemployment does not equal homelessness, and if it does in your studies of "basic economics" then I think I'll pass on "reading up on" on it. K?
I have been unemployed a number of times, but only homeless once, and it really was not caused by anything that was out of my control, although at the time I believed it was, nor is it usually out of ones control for long.
It was caused by the fact that I drank too much, which was totally my decision, and worked too little, also totally my decision.
The longterm homeless people that I met fell into one of two catagories: The insane or the drunk/lazy.
There where also the situationally homeless, those that had lost a job, suffered a divorce that type of thing, but those people did not stay homeless very long at all. Homelessness for them was a temporary situation, which they worked their way out of, usually in weeks or a few months at worst, never years.
We drunk/lazys thought that they had all the luck, and wished it would come our way, but what they really had was determination to improve thier life, we didn't understand this as we had little or none of thier drive.
The longterm homeless that were insane usually didn't want to do what they needed to do to get well, like stay on their meds which the state did provide, and since they cannot be forced to take them once they leave the hospital, what do you think can be done about them, short of life inprisonment?
Now for the drunk/lazy group, of which I was a member in good standing.
We really where all over the place as to the triggers of our homelessness, but no matter what we said it was, it always did go back to the fact that we where drunk and/or lazy.
Hell for the first four months I loved being homeless, it was a kind of freedom I had never experienced before in my life. No one told you what to do, when to do or why to do. You were in total control of your life. Money could be made by a bi-weekely visit to the blood bank to "donate", at $20 a pop, plasma. It however did start to get cold, and this changed some of the allure this lifestyle held for me.
Being cold blows!
There was talk by a couple of my drunk/lazy homeless pals of going to Texas, Florida or California for the winter like one of the guys did every year. Kinda sounds like retirement without the pension or social security check doesn't it? Well it kind of was, but going to an unknown place, in the south, where the police did not care for you being there, it was going to be much work.
I made a decision that I did not care to live outdoors through a northern winter, so I did something about it.
I took a temporary job cleaning the county stadium the morning after games. It paided minimum wage and you had to be at the employment office at 4:00 am to even have a chance of working. I worked hard, and cut back on the booze, and it lead to being picked for better jobs, and finally a full-time position with one of the companies I temp'ed for.
I went to back to college, graduated, and never slid back into that life. To this day I give way more money than the average to a local homeless shelter that serves families in trouble. They also spent 97+% of the money that comes in the door directly on serving those that need it, not < 20% like the so-called Federal Anti-poverty Programs. I spent one week every year building homes with Habitat for Humanity, and have provided job training for at-risk youth. Some of these kids want to make a better life for themselves, while others want a free ride, the free riders get nowhere with me.
I will always remember where I came from, where I have gotten to, and most of all I will always beleive that we all should help those that are trying to make a better life for themselves, and leave those that could not care less about improving their lives alone to live as they wish. See it really is simple.
So that said I want to get back to the guy with the sign, he probably makes more money than the average worker with that sign, so my hats off to him.
Kathryn, "There but for the grace of God, go I."?
WTF? LMAO!
LOTE, I have known too many people who were teetering on the brink financially, and who I know would have been pushed over the edge mentally by homelessness to buy into your assessment of the situation. From what I have seen in news reports and accounts, the services for the impoverished mentally ill (and really, don't you think we should include drug addiction under the umbrella of mental health?) are awful, not really a system that makes them feel safe.
Your story is the basic Horatio Alger story, congrats. But that narrative is the reason why social programs in this country are in such a sorry state. Americans like to believe that everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but that just isn't the case. Some people work hard, and do their best, and still can't make a life. And not becuase they are drunk or lazy. Sometimes people are just unlucky. We can argue (discuss) whether society has any obligations to these people and why or why not. But let's start with the axiom that such people do exist.
As for "there but..." I did say a secular version thereof. Or did you mean you don't think I could become homeless?
Let me ask you something.
How many homeless people have you actually talked to?
This is not a retorical question, because to understand them, you need to actually talk to them. Most people will not want to get dirty and actually spend a few hours talking to them.
Most people just want them to go away to disappear from view, since they make them uncomfortable just with their meer presence on the street.
Excuse my french, but F*ck "news reports and accounts".
Who controls what you see and hear in the news?
To tell you the honest truth, when I was homeless and we the heard of a new state program ,we knew that we would recieve no benefit, nothing.
The only people that gained anything was the providers, and mainly the employees of the Department of Human Services. They'd get new offices, furniture, a nice parking structure. The people they were suppose to be serving would get nothing.
To truly understand this or any issue, you need to know the people, then make your own evaluation of what is actually happening.
As for my story being a Horato Alger story, not even close. I knew people that came from better places that ended up worse off, and people that came horrible situations that are much better off, but the differece always was who wanted to change.
You cannot take a drunk, who loves to drink and make him stop.
That is something that has to come from within the individual!
As to drug addicts, end the sham War on Drugs, and watch what happens when 1/10 of the money we throw down that rat hole is spent on education.
I have only talked to a couple of homeless people. This was when I lived in NYC, and they were not lengthy discussions. But my impression was that they would not choose the life they were leading.
I get the same impression from the reports I've read. Of course, I take news reports with a grain of salt. I consider the source, and the author, and the methodology and critically analyze their conclusions. I don't throw the media baby out with the bathwater. Like all human endeavors, the media is flawed, but that doesn't mean it is worthless.
The point is that most people who are making it, even if they're barely getting by, have a support system of friends, family, and yes, at times, the government. The homeless, by and large, lack that support system. Getting off drugs and alcohol is hard, and pretty much impossible to do on your own. You can recognize the problem, but making the change requires help, hence things like AA sponsors. Same thing for getting psychological treatment.
The current programs may be administered badly, but the idea is sound. It's not about taking care of people (the much maligned "nanny state"), but about giving them access to a support system they can avail themselves of if they choose.
I apologize for joining the party so late. Yes, there is a difference between being homeless in Lengby, Minnesota and Phoenix, Arizona. Holy Cow! Now I'm writing poetry...
I can tell you that homeless in Philomath, Oregon wasn't much fun in January either. But it never would have crossed my mind to find a program to help me. Uh no, the couple of times that I found myself without a home - the first thing I looked for was a job. But hey, that's me...
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